Personal Connections: The Heart of Sales and Leadership with Chris Wells (Encore) | Ep #121

Wendy (00:01):

Welcome to Building Better Managers. I am your host, Wendy Hanson, and I am delighted to have you with me today to learn from some wonderful guests who are going to share their information and their brilliance and their experiences around management and leadership and building great teams in organizations. I am also the co-founder of New Level Work, so check us out https://www.newlevelwork.com/. Thanks for tuning in.

Announcer (00:30):

Welcome to Building Better Managers. We're thrilled to bring you an encore presentation of one of our most impactful episodes. This conversation remains especially relevant today and we're excited to share it with you. Again, whether it's your first time tuning in or you're revisiting this standout episode, we're sure it will spark new insights to help you grow as a leader. Let's get started.

Wendy (00:51):

Greetings, everyone. I'm so glad you've joined us today. There's so much happening in the world right now, and it's so nice to be able to talk with people who really enjoy people. And I get to talk to Chris Wells today who is the VP of EMEA for New Level Work. He's our sales leader all over Europe and beyond. He's done a great job with us, and we're not going to talk about sales as much as we're going to talk about relationships because Chris really knows that that's what's important, building a relationship with someone, and he really has a special perspective on the personalities of l and D leaders and HR and salespeople and all the similarities between them, and what's the best way for us to support each other in this world so that we can support the people that we have in our organizations. But it really starts with people.

(01:51):

So I think you're going to enjoy this really kind of up close and personal discussion that Chris and I have today, and I hope you take as much away from it as I did. So just listen in and think about what kind of impact you can have, whether you're an HR l and d sales or you are a rising star and you're going to use this in your future as you learn. So thank you so much for tuning in. Chris, I am so excited that we get to chat today, being colleagues and working together. I love to know more about the sales space and l and d, so what a great opportunity. So thank you for making time for this.

Chris (02:35):

It's an absolute delight and a pleasure, Wendy. Yeah, really excited to talk to you today.

Wendy (02:40):

Thank you. And I'm very curious what initially drew you to HR and the learning sector and sales, those three together, and what's kept you there and engaged in the fields for so long? Nearly three decades.

Chris (02:57):

Thank you for that. Nearly three decades, but

Wendy (03:01):

That was the easiest way to say it, Chris.

Chris (03:03):

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. You're old. It's fine. So it's a good question. So I think as with many sales folk, I fell into it. I mean, I left university and needed to get a job to pay off all those debts. So I fell into sales, and it just happened to be for a very early stage learning tech company and what's kept me in it now, there's a story here that I'd like to tell you because it was a real seminal moment for me, and it's really, it's the thing that's kept me in sales, and it's the thing that I think has helped me be successful and has brought me a lot of joy. So we'll zoom back through part of those three decades to when I was a 27, 28-year-old, fairly newbie salesperson. And salespeople are taught to focus on the business challenges as the HR and learning folks listening to this, you're probably experienced from listening to salespeople ask you, so tell me what are your big business challenges?

(04:21):

And that's valid up to a point, and that's kind of how I was trained. But there was this really big deal going down with, and I won't mention the names as they were, but a big international multinational organization. And this was going to be a huge deal. I mean, there was two and a half million dollars on the table for the initial contract and the potential of many more millions after that. So there was huge competition. There was a big fight going on for this business, and this was back in the days when you could take people out for lunch, and who knows, maybe you still can. And the learning leader there, let's call him Andrew. I took him out for lunch and we talked about business, but we also got into some personal stuff as well. And Andrew was telling me that Chris, he was later in his career, and he told me that he really wanted to make this project successful because his plan was to stick around for about a year or two afterwards.

(05:28):

And then he wanted to go off and do his own consulting gig, have his own consulting firm. And the reason behind that was that he had a son at home who had some pretty severe disabilities, which meant that his life was going to be short, and he wanted to give himself the flexibility to spend more time with his family. And it hit me a ton of bricks that, wait a minute, we're all trying to sell Andrew this big learning platform. We're trying to sell Andrew on engaged employees and higher performance. But actually, what I would much rather be selling Andrew, is the ticket out of there. I'd much rather be selling and helping Andrew to achieve his goal, to be with his family. That resonated with me far more than selling a piece of learning technology that was going to help this big business grow even more. And it was a game changer for me.

Wendy (06:37):

What a story. And it really hits you, the supportive people, the business will do, but that personal connection, that must have meant the world to him.

Chris (06:48):

Exactly. And it shifted things. I mean, we won the business because we were no longer selling a piece of learning technology. We were selling, and there were different ways in which we achieved this, but we were selling his ticket to spend time with his family. So yeah, it's all about understanding the people, challenges the people that you are maybe selling to the people in your business.

Wendy (07:16):

Yeah, I love that. Not just about let's just go quick and get the business. It's know the whole picture. It's like that's what we do in coaching too. Coaching isn't just about talking about the business. Our whole life comes into it. And you need to be aware of that when people have certain things that they're doing or family issues. Oh, that's a great story, Chris.

Chris (07:40):

And as I've been working with you over the last four years and how much I really love working at New Level Work and what we do, the work that we do and the change that we see, I think that's really been a wonderful experience at this point in my career to be part of leadership development in particular, because whether you are a parent, a principal, or a president, leadership really has a dramatic effect. The ripple effect is huge. So by reaching and developing the folks that we do, you really feel like you're having a big impact.

Wendy (08:28):

And they're in a circle, and it's like a pebble dropped in the water and the ripples go out and other people get affected because they're doing better. Exactly. That's beautiful. Yeah, exactly. And I've heard you say over the years that HR and learning leaders and salespeople are surprisingly, they have similar personality types. I am very curious about this one. They're cut from the same cloth you've said,

Chris (08:52):

And

Wendy (08:52):

When it comes to the skills they bring to the table, they're similar. Can you share something and where the overlap is?

Chris (09:00):

Because

Wendy (09:01):

That wouldn't have occurred to me.

Chris (09:02):

Yep. Oh, it's remarkable. But it's very, very true. That's another reason why I've stayed in this industry for so long. I mean, you end up meeting with people who are actually quite similar, and I think a lot of HR folks will understand this and learning folks will understand this when I explain what I mean by this, and I think a lot of the HR people that I've worked with over the years have been fantastic salespeople, and they might not know it, but they've got those traits within them. I was reflecting on this just the other day, and think about this for a moment, HR and learning, they're one of the few departments in an organization that refers to their colleagues as customers. Our internal customer, you might get some others, but it's especially true of her. And you think about, well, just because they work in the company, they're not automatically your customer. You might want to serve them as such, but to get a customer, to keep a customer, you've got to do one thing, and that's engage them. And I think this is something that HR and learning professionals and leaders know very, very well. Engagement, engagement, engagement. So I've seen many HR and learning professionals move over onto this side of the fence to become salespeople or in some kind of client facing role. I've seen it numerous times. It's really interesting.

Wendy (10:40):

And they have walked in those shoes before of what it's like to be on that side, and they're so knowledgeable, and it's part of what you say about really connecting with somebody. They've seen what that's like.

Chris (10:53):

This is true. I mean, you look at the character traits or the skillset of a salesperson and an HR or a learning leader. I mean, ultimately, we're all people. I mean, we, okay, so I fell into this, but I stayed into it. I love working with people. I'm a people person. And I think HR folks, when you talk to them, why did you get into this? What kind of lights your light? What are you passionate about? It's about the people, about helping them reach their full potential and those bright moments. And yes, I have to deal with all of this other boring stuff, but that's the thing that really gets me. So we're all people, people. So HR folks and sales folks are great at relationship building overall. They're great relationship builders. It's about that human connection, communication, trust building overall, very empathetic. And I think salespeople, if they're going to be any good need, be super empathetic to build that rapport.

(11:57):

Influencing skills. I mean, the HR and learning leaders, they all have to have fantastic influencing skills to get these projects that they're trying to launch over the line to get people engaged in what they're doing. They're strategic thinkers, like salespeople, they're results orientated as well. So it's like what are the outcomes? What are the results that we're trying to get? So there's huge similarities, and I think probably the most is resilience. So salespeople especially have to be resilient. And I think it's the same for a lot of our HR and learning listeners. They definitely know that one, they need to be resilient.

Wendy (12:43):

Resilient. Yeah. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Clearly you're familiar with Clifton strengths. I'm hearing those coming out and whenever we work with teams that are salespeople, all their strengths almost sometimes come under influencing. Yeah, influencing and relationships. Yeah. Well, that's great. That's great. Now, what are some of the common blind spots you see HR and learning leaders have about implementing leadership development programs? What gets in their way?

Chris (13:12):

Okay, so there's two biggies that I see again and again. The first one is, and I know this is not always, well, no, it's always possible. This one, involving the leaders of the leaders involving the leaders of the managers very deeply in what you are doing with the participants. Let's call 'em the learners themselves. So as much as we all know we need to track ROI, and we need to assess the results and measure, measure, measure, and you can measure skill development up to a point. What I've seen is that the most successful leadership development projects, and by successful, I would qualify that by saying, we do it again. So we don't just come and do some training or some coaching and then we stop. That's not been successful. Probably if we managed to go back and get more funding, then it was successful. And the hallmark of so many of these is the stories, the stories of transformation, and it tends to be the stories from the leaders of the leaders that went through some of the training or development, their perspectives on how Wendy or Chris has really changed on the ground and the results that we've seen that are almost impossible to measure in any quantifiable way.

(14:43):

Yeah, let's say that's the biggest. And there's another one, which is a big blind spot. What's next? What happens next? We do some coaching, we do some training, we send some people on a course then, and I think we still see a lot of this sheep dip. We call it sheep dipping, that we'll train these folks and then they're kind of left. So it's really thinking about how do we set leaders up in the mindset of continuous development and give them the tools to be able to do that in a way that's scalable and cost effective.

Wendy (15:26):

Yeah. And when you get into one of those relationships with a learning leader, even to think about that in the beginning for learning leaders to say, how do we keep this all going and can tell that you're in Europe, we don't usually use sheep dipping here. No. Okay.

(15:42):

I think that's a wonderful way to describe it. I don't know what it's called when they stay for the long-term, but I think that long-term piece of people growing and learning, we actually have some people that are being coached by New Level Work. One person has come back for eight different rounds of coaching because, and that's not a dependency, that's having a thought partner. So it's very interesting when things stick and because we share all the feedback that we get from everyone, it is amazing when you say, this has changed my life. I am a better person at home because now I know how to listen, which I didn't know before. So it helps them at work, helps them at home. So that is something that people need to think about in advance. That's great.

Chris (16:29):

Yeah. This is the thing that we see it again and again, people say, this helped me professionally, personally, and I shared with you a few days ago, Leora, our new AI, incredibly mature and wonderful AI coach. I was talking to somebody and they told me that, well, did you know that Leora means light or my light even in some other languages? Which I think wasn't intentional, but it's right on point,

Wendy (17:00):

Right? It was meant to be. It came out that way. That's wonderful. We've had some great feedback on that. Now, looking back over your, we'll make it a little less 28 years, we won't call you decades this time in sales, especially selling to HR and learning leaders. What are the key changes that you've noticed in how organizations approach leadership development for their folks?

Chris (17:24):

Well, I do see that people are more switched on to the long term. So I know I said that that was one of the blind spots, but I think that people are more turned on and they are looking at ways to keep the momentum going and not to talk about our own solutions too much. I think this is why we are seeing such interest in AI in particular, because it really gives a very cost effective and literally effective way to continue that momentum. I think that for decades at the dawn of e-learning, if there was a dawn of e-learning, then what was so attractive about that was this idea of personalization, that it's really personalized. I get to pick my path through something. But I think what we've learned and what a lot of learning leaders and HR leaders have learned is it's not very personal really, and they're seeking for that ultimate personalization that can actually only come through coaching or indeed group led coaching, which can also be highly personalized. There are challenges with that as well, because difficult if you're a big company to keep going on with more and more human-led coaching. And again, I think that's where AI is going to see a big uplift for us.

Wendy (18:58):

And for many companies, this is coming out so quickly, but our different AI products I just think are going to make a difference so that it really does feel more personal and have some humans involved in that too. Because as you've been saying, we really like humans and people. We

Chris (19:15):

Do like humans, we want to keep

Wendy (19:16):

Them connected to all the things that we do.

Chris (19:19):

We want to stick around.

Wendy (19:20):

Yes, yes. Now, how have the conversations with clients evolved over the years? What are HR and learning leaders asking for now that they weren't asking for a decade ago?

Chris (19:34):

Well, I think that the challenge, I'm going to talk a little bit about challenges here as well, because I think what people are asking for relates to some of the challenges. And sadly, I think these challenges have got worse over time. So the biggest challenge an HR or learning leader faces when it comes to learning and development or leadership development is money hands down. So budgets are being cut. I spoke to somebody learning leader the other day and she said the finance director was in touch with me, wanted to ask how much money I had left in my budget, and there was some important initiative that they might need more cash for. And it turned out that they were trying to take her budget for the Christmas party. I think if you think about a finance director and how they think about that training budgets thing, well, we can use that for the Christmas party.

(20:41):

So it's, again, this relates to the conversation. What people are asking for more and more is how can I make this money go further? And also where can I get the biggest impact for the budget that I have? Which I think is why we've seen such an uplift in leadership development in particular, because I think that learning leaders are starting to see that with my limited budget, if I invest in the 10% of leaders in my organization and I equip them to flow that knowledge down, then I get a bigger bang for my buck from doing that. And I think this relates to another thing that people are asking for. They're asking for a shift in mindset with their leaders. So they're asking for a shift in mindset where it's not hrs responsibility to create engagement within the organization. It's not hrs responsibility to build culture, build the culture that we want. It's the leaders in our business, whether they're new leaders or they're the senior executives. So it's about's not just the classic leadership skills that we're wanting to develop. It's really about that shift in mindset that these are our leaders' responsibilities.

Wendy (22:11):

We know how the leaders are. It's like a mirror image that goes down to what the company does, how the leaders handle things, how they hold culture and development and care of people. Everybody else, that's where you learn from. That's where you learn this is what this organization does. And I think that's a really important point you made there. And unfortunately, sometimes that budget is some of the first things to go, and that's really a retention strategy to keep people in. We've had people at New Level Work come in when they're interviewing for a job. One of the things they say, well, I get coaching, that's a plus. So we know that people really want these things in any company. They want that kind of support. So yeah, we need to see, and we need to keep learning and connecting with learning leaders to keep up with, because as you've said, it changes over the years. The way companies handle things is very dynamic. So we need to stay partners so we understand what their needs are.

Chris (23:15):

And I think that we're getting asked a lot more, and maybe this was always true, but how can we be innovative? How can we be different? So I think that learning and HR leaders are being far more bold in the moves that they make, and they want to stay at the, they need to stay at the forefront, and things are moving so quickly. So they want to bring innovative solutions to their leaders and to their people in general.

Wendy (23:45):

Yeah. Oh, that's great. Now, you've been involved with hundreds, if not thousands of talent development initiatives over the years. If you could give one piece of advice to HR leaders, what would it be?

Chris (24:01):

So I think it would be that it is probably around the theme of personalization, but making it hyper-personalized. And also, so actually I can unpack that a little bit more. So this comes back to sort of what I was talking about earlier, that we have to kind be real and recognize that maybe some of the things we've been doing and we've invested a lot of money in aren't working. So I'm referencing here the big investments in e-learning platforms, whatever they might be, that I consistently here on a daily, weekly, monthly basis are getting five, 10, maybe 15% usage, which makes them hugely costly and very inefficient and ineffective. So I think it's about recognizing where things aren't working and looking towards solutions that are hyper personalized and demand led.

Wendy (25:05):

And if I flip that, what advice would HR leaders give salespeople?

Chris (25:12):

Well, this is a good one. So this is something I think I know to be true, and I certainly talk to my team about it. I mean, other salespeople, more junior salespeople is that the HR leaders would probably tell salespeople if they were being open that please be aware that me investing in anything is fraught with anxiety and a little bit of professional fear and be aware of that, be aware of that. It's when any of us make any significant purchases and salespeople for learning and HR solutions are often asking for not small amounts of money that you recognize that the person on the other end is making a bit of a bet on you, especially if it's the first time they've worked with you. So I think they would say, focus on building trust with me in whatever way you can.

(26:22):

It's an obvious thing to say, listen to me. I think they would say, because I hear this from HR, I often chat to HR leaders about the whole sales experience, and they get fed up of salespeople coming along and asking what their business challenges are. It's like, well, they're all broadly the same. We're trying to hit a huge revenue goal that keeps getting bigger and bigger as a company. That's our business challenge. We're dealing with change and transformation on a constant basis. So these sorts of things are the same. Ask me what my challenges are as an HR or learning leader personally, and then you'll get to the nub of how you can work with me and really partner with me.

Wendy (27:13):

Yeah. Wow. We're back to almost where you started in the beginning of personally, it's really about connecting with the person and getting them, and I don't know if it was you who told me this story the other day, but one of the learning leaders who had just started with the company maybe six months before was bringing in something. And it's exactly as you described it. They were like, I just got here. You need to help me look good. So there needed to be that trust there and asking a lot of questions and not being frustrated when somebody asks a lot of questions because they feel like they're under a microscope. And I think our team does such a good job at that

Chris (27:53):

Both sides, if sides is the right phrase, are invested in success and they're most invested in their personal, their team, their local success. And if we all get that, we're all just people at the end of the day trying to make it through. So the more that we understand each other's well, the more that we understand each other, the better.

Wendy (28:21):

Yeah. And one final question, Chris, what's next for you in your career journey? How do you envision the future of sales in HR, especially in the leadership development space? What do you see happening in the future?

Chris (28:35):

I think it's going to become really, really interesting. I mean, firstly, I see my future here at New Level Work because as you know, it's my happy place. Here's the challenge with sales, and again, I talk about this a lot with HR and learning leaders. We get into it a little bit because often they'll say to me, especially if it's a first time we are meeting, that I really don't take many meetings with sales folk, but there was something about your approach and blah, blah, blah. And I think that's really the challenge is how do we break through the noise? Maybe it's a change of the word salesperson because who wants to, I don't want to talk to a salesperson. They're here to hurt me. So I think what's really going to, and we're already on this journey and we have been for many years, but really delivering on this idea of being a partner, of really understanding. I mean, we're back to the same old pretty straightforward themes here. And obviously AI is going to change everything and we'll just have to see whether we're all going to be here in 20 years. Well, I won't be on a beach somewhere for sure, whether my a martini

Wendy (30:02):

Good, all. That's how I'll envision you in the future. Yes, we're going to help so many people have their best life through what we do at New Level Work, and then eventually we will sit back and say, yeah, life was good. Yeah, this has been a good journey. We did good. We did good. And part of the good journey is when you get to work with colleagues who come from the same, are cut from the same cloth, just like the learning leaders and partners. I've always felt a little bit strange when people call vendors, they call you, I'm not a vendor. I'm your partner. I want everything for you. Yeah, it's so

Chris (30:41):

True.

Wendy (30:42):

Well, this has just been wonderful. Thank you for sharing your philosophy about this. I learned so much that I didn't really think about from a perspective about the different personalities of learning leaders and salespeople and partners and how they work together. So thank you for sharing that. And everyone, anytime you want to talk to us, you know where to find us in the show notes. There'll be a lot of things there that you'll be able to see. So Chris, we appreciate you. We appreciate all you do, not only for New Level Work, but for people out there because that's where your heart is. Have a wonderful day, everybody. Take care. Thank you for stopping by. Thank you so much for listening. And in the show notes, you'll find a transcription and also I have a request. Would you go on our website, New Level Work.com, and you can actually find this through putting in New Level Work.com/review.

(31:46):

We'd love it if you would write a review on the podcast building better. Managers really love feedback. We love feedback in our organization when we do coaching, group coaching, any professional development work. So we would love some feedback here. That would be great. And I think Chris's really amazing conversation here today about how we need to take care of all the humans in the world, not so much about sales, but about connecting. So we're glad you came on board with us. Please go look@newlevelwork.com and see what's up. We have a really exciting new AI product called Leora, and Leora is going to change things in the world. Everybody's doing AI. We have a human connected with our AI on its own AI, so please go check it out and you can get a demo if you just go on New Level Work, you'll see where you connect and ask for a demo, see what it's like. You'll learn a lot and you'll learn what we're up to and we'd always love your feedback. So please take care.

Thank you for joining us today. For more information show notes and any downloads from today's podcast, please visit New Level Work.com. We would also be so appreciative if you'd write a review, go on to New Level Work.com/review and you can write a review on your favorite podcast app. It makes a big difference because we want to really grow managers and leaders around the world, and we need your help. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful day.

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