Wendy Hanson 0:24
Welcome, everybody. You know, we interview many guests on this podcast talking about communication, relationships, connection, feedback. This is because you can all have good processes in an organization. But if you don't develop good positive relationships, it's almost impossible to get the work done. So we want to have productivity and companies, but we need relationships. One of our strong values at BetterManager is community. We create a culture of belonging, care and growth for one another and for those that we serve. Today, we're going to focus on respect in relationships, and how they serve us at work and in our lives. Because we know that everything about relationships and what we learn, as we're coaching execs, they always say, wow, this really helped me in my personal relationships, too. So I know as you're listening to this about respect, it's going to show up in different pieces, different parts of your life. So let me tell you about my guest. Dr. Julie Pham is the founder and the CEO of curiosity based and organizational development firm based in Seattle. She is the author of the number one Amazon new release and best seller seven forms of respect, a guide to transforming your communication and relationships at work. Dr. Pham has been recognized with numerous awards for her community leadership. She has applied her community building approach to building strong, collaborative and curious teams. She was born in Saigon, Vietnam and raised in Seattle, Dr. Pham earned her PhD in history at Cambridge University as a Gates, Cambridge scholar, and she graduated magna cum laude from University of California, Berkeley as a as a Haas scholar, she has earned her real life MBA by running her family's Vietnamese language newspaper during the 2008 to 2010 recession. She has worked as a journalist, historian, university lecturer, marketer, nonprofit executive, and management consultant. So she has lots of great degrees experience and also the school of hard knocks. So welcome, Julie, I'm so glad to have you on the podcast.
Julie Pham 2:47
When do you think he's so much for inviting me? I'm excited to have this conversation.
Wendy Hanson 2:51
Yes, I think it's such an important conversation. And I love the way that you, you, you really think about respect? And how did you get to begin thinking that respect was such a key component in relationships? Because there are many things that can show up in a relationship. But where did where did that begin for you?
Julie Pham 3:10
It came from what people told me. So from my community building work, I would notice that there would be friction that would emerge from the different way that people wanted to be treated like ah, you know, they're not respecting me, oh, I want to I can't believe they're doing this or that. And then once I started to do my research, I first asked, well, how do you want to be treated at work? And then people kept using the word respect. And so that's why I honed in on on respect, because then I realized they mean different things by respect, because once I asked him, What do you mean by that? Describe that to me, then people would start to describe different behaviors. And that's when I started to get really interested in what is respect me? And what does it look like?
Wendy Hanson 3:50
Yeah, oh, that's a great, and I can hear that if you're doing community work. And people say, I just want to feel respected. Yeah. But it's more than that. And I love that. I think everybody listening is going to be able to take this and, and, and think about parts of it, and how it fits into their relationships, at work and in their life. So generally speaking, what are the seven forms of respect and then we're going to go into them.
Julie Pham 4:14
So generally speaking, it's a framework to communicate what you need, and also to understand what other people need in terms of respect. And this stems from my work on curiosity and practicing curiosity, which is all about increasing self awareness, building relationships across difference, and communicating, communicating clearly, and sparking conversations.
Wendy Hanson 4:36
And, and I love curiosity as a coach, Curiosity is one of our foundational skills that you need to develop as a coach to really be curious. So I love how that shows up here and it showed up in your work. So and how do you know what people need in terms of respect? Like how did you begin you were hearing people say things But as we go through the list, what should we be thinking about? Like? What do other people need and appreciate is a form of respect? How do we figure that out?
Julie Pham 5:08
Well, first, I actually encourage people to ask themselves what they need before they ask other people. So before you ask, Hey, what do you need? What do you want? I have to ask myself, what how do I want to be respected? How do I like to give respect? How do I like to get respect? And then once I'm actually aware of that for myself, that I can have that conversation with other people, because then it becomes a conversation of learning that, hey, well, how do you? How do you think of respect? And how should we be in this interaction? And then maybe one were with a larger group? How does that look? And and then to share what you what you'd like to get so that it's that back and forth?
Wendy Hanson 5:47
Yeah. Well, it is. It is always if we can look at ourselves and understand that a little bit better, yeah, then we're better off being able to ask other people. So let's go through them the seven forms of respect and, and I love that you have you have little scenarios and thoughts and case studies on each of them so that people can figure out oh, that's me, or that's somebody else I know. So the first one is procedure. So tell me about that.
Julie Pham 6:13
So procedure is about adhering to establish rules and norms. And so for those who like procedure, for example, if you are having a meeting, you send out an agenda and you send out prep work. Are you the kind of person who wants people to do that prep work? Or are there some people who she's like, I know you're so busy, I just, you know, it's an FYI. But it's not a big deal. You don't actually feel disrespected, if they don't do the prep work. It's like a nice bonus if you do, if they do do the prep work. But for some people, it's really important that, that they did the prep work, and that people will feel respected if they see that people prepared as they were asked, or where even if, hey, I'd like you to do it in this particular way. And some people are just, well, I got it done, why do I have to do it in your way? Isn't the result more important than the process? Or procedure is actually the process is really important.
Wendy Hanson 7:07
Okay, so that one is really about process. And, and when you your first example of well, you could do it if you want or, you know, this is how I want it done. How do you say that even if you're going to send somebody that agenda that is very clear that how do you put down your expectations so that you're respecting them and you're respecting yourself?
Julie Pham 7:28
Just saying, I, here's the prep work, and I expect it, I really would like I would really like you to, to prepare in this way. And then also at the meeting, to ask about it to actually have some accountability too. Because sometimes, people if they're not asked about the prep work, then they think it's not important to do, right. And so for you to even show, if you're running the meeting, hey, I actually not only want you to do the prep work, I will make sure that it was valuable for you to do the prep work, because it's going to be important to this meeting. Yeah. Oh,
Wendy Hanson 8:01
I love that. And I love that, you know, if we're clear about it upfront, so that people understand the why and the expectations, then they're more likely to do it. So we really disrespect somebody if they're very much into procedure, and we don't follow it. So that's a form of disrespect. Yes,
Julie Pham 8:17
it were given disrespect or lack of respect in the way that that's important to them. Okay. Because I think it's respect is when people are intentionally, you can feel disrespected. But if the other person just didn't realize that it was important to you, then it's a lack of respect, I think that there is a distinction between lack of respect versus disrespect, which feels a bit, which is more intentional.
Wendy Hanson 8:39
Thank you. That's a good yeah, that's a good clarification, lack of respect, and we want to be able to part of this is like, understanding what people need and then show respect for that. Great. So the next thing, we have procedure, and the next one is punctuality. Oh, this, I think is a big one, this shows up in a lot of
Julie Pham 8:57
places. Yes. And you know, this one is about honoring time constraints, which is different from honoring time, and the value of time. So this one is, if you know that you there's going to be a meeting and you come early to actually prepare that the projector is working and that the laptop is ready, and that the sound so that the meeting can actually start on time. And you will let someone know, hey, I'm running late. And then you may even say, also the time constraints, hey, we have five minutes for until this meeting ends, just kind of giving a warning. Now for know, this. In the US this is considered in many places is considered really important when I lived in Germany. Oh my gosh, that was so important. When I lived in Vietnam, there's a phrase time is rubber. It's and so this is why sometimes people ask me isn't punctuality just obvious? And it's like, no, it's actually it is relative. There are some people where the time constraints isn't as important as the time that we spend together.
Wendy Hanson 10:00
That's such a great nuance there that you point out in so many global organizations that we cannot hold the expectations of, say, the US. And it's taught in the way that the US and Germany and a number of other countries the way they hold time, and we need to be sensitive to that. Correct?
Julie Pham 10:18
Yes. And also windy. I mean, I worked at a company where people would get triple booked for meetings, there is no way that they could be on time. So you know, even thinking about the conditions of your company, like, are you setting up an expectation that you actually can't meet?
Wendy Hanson 10:32
Yeah, I've heard a number of companies. I don't know how successful they've been. But they don't have one hour meetings, they'll have 50 minute meetings, or 45 minute meetings, and they'll stick to it, because especially now that we're very virtual, it's really hard to go from one meeting to the next and not be able to stand up, go do something, you know, really, really important. So that that time how we hold time is a form of respect
Julie Pham 11:00
to correct, yes, yeah, absolutely.
Wendy Hanson 11:03
So we had, and I'm going to keep repeating these so that everybody who's listening gets them. The first one was procedure, if you were here, I would test you. The second one is punctuality. And the third one is information tell us about information. So
Julie Pham 11:17
information is open and easy access to data to knowledge, to information. And so what this could look like is seeing people on emails, even if they don't need to be on that email thread, inviting people to meetings, even though they don't need to be at that meeting. And it's just, it's actually not important for them to be they're not, it's just like you just want them pig, FYI. And a lot of this is FYI, you don't actually expect they don't, there's not an ask or an action for them. Now, for some people. For example, for me, I'm actually an information on a need to know basis only. So I actually don't like to DCC I don't like to see see people unless there's an unless there's an action for them. But for other people, they feel I'm not included, you don't respect me, why aren't I Why didn't Why didn't I know even it's just like, but I didn't want to fill your inbox. And so this is actually something that for some companies is this expectation that no share the information you will have, you'll have access to all of these, all of these drives, and you can poke around. And for other people's like know that information is we're going to be very selective about who gets what information. And, and for those who like information, it can feel secretive, they feel exclusive, they can feel like they're not getting respect in the way that they want. And for people who like me, it's just like information I need to know basis only, like, I'm respecting your time, I'm thinking about your time, I don't want to overwhelm you, I don't want to flood your inbox. So this is actually one of the forms of respect that gets the most kind of there's the most controversy around at least in the US when I do it with groups in the US.
Wendy Hanson 13:05
Yes. And and it brings up a question for me, if you are, you know, working in an organization? And do you say, Well, I know that these four people really like to just FYI, stay in the know, you know, so they're not missing something. And these others, so do you have to really think through who's going to be on your list and really understand what their need is for information.
Julie Pham 13:29
And so windy, actually, what I like to do with teams is to establish the digital help teams determine what are your team's forms respect? Ease, is it and that actually is to align that with what is needed for the the the shared purpose for the nature of your work? Do you actually need to inform everyone? And if it's not, then maybe we can deprioritize that. But if it is, then let's let's prioritize that. And then those there are individuals on that team that maybe don't like it or like it. And then they can go with Well, this is what we decided is going to be best for the team based on our shared work. And so it kind of D personalizes it from like, oh, well, I know these four people like it, but these six people don't. And I have to keep that. That's exhausting. Right. So it's more about trying to figure out what it is at the team level. And so information is typically one of those that I really push teams to, to decide, hey, do you actually want this? Do you know what it means? And then we're gonna do Do you want this or not?
Wendy Hanson 14:30
Yeah. Oh, I love that example. You know, use your team use the wisdom of the crowd to be able to decide what's going to be out there.
Julie Pham 14:37
And it's not about voting. It's about deciding what is the work we need? And does it would having that form of respect support that work? It's not about oh, well, six people like it in for people don't it's actually
Wendy Hanson 14:50
does it support our work? Would it would it? Would it add value to the work exactly. Yeah. Oh, that's great. And candor, candor is the next one. So we have See your punctuality information? And now candor.
Julie Pham 15:04
Yes. So candor is similar to information. But the changes it's information with a purpose to activate change. It's feedback, right? So information is like, FYI, you do that what you want, you might not do anything with it. But candor is like I'm giving you this information with the expectation that there's going to be some kind of change. And so this could look like constructive feedback, both solicited and unsolicited, this could look like playing devil's advocate, it can look like asking challenging questions. So with candor, what's really interesting is that it can be hard. So I get teams like no, we need to have candor, we need to have candor. And then when I actually get them to practice candor, oh, man, they're like, oh, like candor, doesn't feel good. And then we get into discussion of like, Well, is it something that you really need, and then and you've decided that you need it for the work, and so you have to get comfortable with it. Or it's actually not, not in your top three. And like, and what I think is really challenging with this particular form of respect, and I see this with CEOs is they want to think that they're that they are good at giving candor. And sometimes I find out through my work. They're not, but they like to think of themselves as, and so there's this, like, with the forms of respect, there's this part of like, what I aspire to give, and when I actually feel comfortable giving. Yeah,
Wendy Hanson 16:37
explain a little bit more about giving candor, like get making making candor, like being able to give feedback. That's when I think about candor, I think of like pure honesty.
Julie Pham 16:48
Yeah, well, and it's, it's so there's, there's that giving the solicited or unsolicited feedback. So, hey, I got to let you know you're writing you're poor writer. And these are ways to improve your writing that could, that could, some people feel like, I don't want to say that, I'm going to hurt their feelings, right. And yet if the other person, that's constructive feedback, and so some people feel comfortable giving it and some people don't feel comfortable giving it, and it's, and it's just important for us to recognize what is something that is so important to us to give that we will do no matter what versus the things that will give, because we know someone else wants it. And we only do it because someone else wants it. And when he I want to also point out here I've talked about giving and getting, because actually one of the dimensions of the forms of respect is that there's a difference between the way people like to give respect in the way they like to get respect. And so for example, I mean, I know for me, I am much better about getting candor than giving candor. And there are some people who like to give candor, but don't like to get candor. And so to recognize that there is actually a difference.
Wendy Hanson 17:58
I can see that. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So the giving in the getting of candor, you have to know and, and you have to know what other people expect of you? And how they can, you know, for the sake of why are we going to give somebody a real candor or candor in terms of their feedback or constructive feedback in a way they can hear it.
Julie Pham 18:19
I used to, because it's not some people because there's that difference. I remember I gave candy to this woman who would give it to me, and then I found out she didn't like to get it. She could give it but not get it. So
Wendy Hanson 18:31
yeah, great distinction. So the next one is consideration. What is a form of respect called consideration.
Julie Pham 18:38
So consideration is the most complex of all of the forms respect, because this one is, is acting on what you think the other person wants and needs. And so this is anticipating their wants and needs. This could be surprising someone like I don't, I think that I want to delight this person. Are they there? And so I'm not going to ask them, I just want to I just want to do it. And so the reason why this is complicated is because as the person who's the receiver, if I like what the person did, that's so consider it if I didn't like what the person did, but so it consider it, right. And so we try to separate the the outcome with the, with the intention, because the intention is to think of what that person wanted. So I'll give you an example in the workplace. So imagine someone comes back from family leave, right? And they're just, I'm exhausted, I'm so tired. I can't take on any more work. And then, and then their boss is just Well, man, I really want to give this person this assignment that I know would be interesting and challenging. But they keep talking about exhausted they are so I better not. I'm going to give it to their colleague. Right. And so then they find out oh, well, my colleague gets this really cool assignment and so one person may say, Oh, thank you. I'm so grateful that they didn't ask me to do that work, because I'm really tired right now, another person then or you might say, I can't believe they didn't ask me. Even if I was gonna say no, I want it to be asked. So you just so that's where consideration is. It's that anticipating what someone wants and needs without asking them
Wendy Hanson 20:25
about asking them. Yes.
Julie Pham 20:29
And here's the thing, Wendy, one of the things that we haven't all of these examples, the book is both based on the workplace. And the next book, I will talk about personal life. Because I think that like I know, for me, consideration is not a form of respect at work, and yet it is for me and my personal life.
Wendy Hanson 20:46
Yes, yes. Oh, I like that distinction, too, because it is going to show up differently. Yeah. I had an example of this by a friend, recently, you know, her, her, her partner have just probably less than a year had said, What do you want for your birthday? And she's like, I don't want to tell you what I want from that one. No, I'm not gonna tell you. And he kept trying to please tell me what you would like, and I'll get you what you want. It's no, I surprised me. You know, it's it was it was almost to the point that she was, she had to keep pushing back. It was no fun whatsoever. And he was like anything she said he would have given her but that was not how she wants that form of prospective consideration. That's such a good example. Wendy, thank
Julie Pham 21:35
you for sharing that. Yeah. She wanted consideration. He was like,
Wendy Hanson 21:41
I want to give you what I want. Yes. Yes. So the next one is acknowledgement.
Julie Pham 21:46
So acknowledgement is expression verbal expressions of gratitude, of praise. And it can also be of confirmation even of just communication. So so it could be, for example, let's say I send you a message. And there's actually no need for you to respond, right? Because there's no action. I'm wanting acknowledgement. He's like, hey, thanks. Like, you actually don't need to send that to me there was, but I want to, I want to get that acknowledgement that little of that, like a one. Like, that's one example. And it could also just be some people get really embarrassed by by acknowledgement, actually. So I think in the US, there's lots of praise. There's lots of like, you're awesome, wonderful work. And then like, let me publicly acknowledge you in front of all of your co workers. And for those who don't want to get that form of acknowledgement, they actually feel cringy. They feel embarrassed. You're just like, I don't I wish you didn't do that. And if you really like giving and getting acknowledgement, this is where we will apply what we think to other people.
Wendy Hanson 22:54
What we think we like we assume other people will like, yeah, and it really rubs against other people the wrong way. Oh, yes, we've heard this, this type of thing a lot. That's really important to understand and to figure out, because that is personal. Right. That's, that's something I have to understand. If you really want to have this, Julie, you know, I need to understand that. I really need to thank you and say what I really appreciate about what you did was you were so clear and articulate on our podcast that you got your message across so great. And that will make you feel like okay, what I said was very worthwhile. And I'll say that again. And I'll use that again.
Julie Pham 23:33
Yes, yes. That's a good example of acknowledgement. Thank you, Wendy. You're
Wendy Hanson 23:36
welcome. You're welcome. And it's the truth. Yes, of course. And the last one is attention. Oh, this
Julie Pham 23:43
one is? This one is really interesting when considering working remotely. So this one is about listening carefully, not multitasking. Right. And so and so I mean, and I think that the working remotely has really changed that. So because one of the things when we ask people, What does respect mean to so many people brought up, I want to be listened to, I don't want to be interrupted. I want to feel heard, right. And yet in. And I will say I've also talked to people like what's the big deal with multitasking? Some companies think of it some individuals think of it as a sign of performance. Like I am able to do all these things at once I am a high performer. I worked at a company where multitasking was so prevalent, you'd go into a meeting and people would be literally on like two devices and someone would be talking and that was okay. And so I think it's really important actually for teens and for companies to say this is acceptable behavior like we are okay with multitasking attention is not a form of respect we prioritize or to say it is a form of respected that is that is prioritized here. And, and, and then that means that you understand that it takes work and we With all of these forms of respect, they take work.
Wendy Hanson 25:05
They take work to acknowledge them to be to understand
Julie Pham 25:11
them to practice them, but to actually, it's easy to say it. Right? Right. It's so easy to be like, we shouldn't multitask, and yet, um, like, the phones just over there, I'll just check that one it'd be, I'll just quickly check, they're not going to notice that I'm checking my text message, your multitasking? Yep.
Wendy Hanson 25:31
And we know from a neuroscience perspective, that that's not good. You know, if we can stay focused on something, we are much better, at least that's one form of a school of thought, then then if you're doing five things at the same time. So while we've had procedure, punctuality, information, candor, consideration, acknowledgement and attention, what is your favorite form of respect for yourself?
Julie Pham 25:57
For giving, I would say, I would say acknowledgement is really high. Acknowledgement is really high, and also candor, and punctuality. I'm the kind of person who will tell people I'm late, even if I know that they're going to be late. And then like, they're constantly like, so. And also, I have all these stories behind each of them. And it's important to think about why do we care about those things? Yeah. And when, what about you? What's popping up for you?
Wendy Hanson 26:24
Punctuality is important for me. You know, especially in my personal life, you know, I've known people that you just knew they were always going to be late, and it just didn't feel respectful. You know, sometimes at work, you know, somebody's stuck on a call with a with somebody that they're coaching or with a client. I really like consideration, and I like the acknowledgement, and yeah, and punctuality, so it is kind of the magic three, like if we all had three things, they kind of dive in together. Yeah. Yeah. And are these are things Julie? styles of people like the seven forms of respect? Are they styles? Or are they not styles?
Julie Pham 27:07
I'm so glad you asked that question when you because it's one of the big misconceptions. And I sometimes when I work with teens, they're like, Oh, so now do we go around and like have signs on our doors that say these are my spec forms are respected? Like no, because actually, it's not like Enneagram. It's not like Myers Briggs, it's not like disc. It's actually the some forms of respect is, it's dynamic. And so there are going to be times where like, Punctuality is really important to me. And yet, and, and, and yet, it kind of depends on who and so. And that is because we look at the forms of respect through three dimensions. Hierarchy is the first one who has more power, equal power or less power is going to influence how you think about respect that give versus get, you know, what I talked about, like how I want to give respect versus how I want to get respect, and then what matters to like what truly matters to you help, just what you think should matter to you. And so it's not about styles, it's actually I think that as it's relative, it's contradictory. It's subjective.
Wendy Hanson 28:13
So we've gone through the forms of respect. So let's boil it down. Now in terms of the workplace, like, how can really understanding these seven forms of respect help individuals and managers at work? Like what's what have you seen in your research and all of your work on this that you've seen is such a benefit for
Julie Pham 28:35
this? It helps people articulate what are the actual priorities, what actually matters, versus what is nice to have. And so I see in the workplace, leaders will write up these these very lofty vision statements of how we behave. Right? And respect is usually one of them. We are we risk, respectful culture. And yet we don't actually talk about what does that mean? What does that look like? And how are we going to compromise? Because sometimes in the workplace, what I see is people can they can use not being, they say, I'm, I said what I want, and I didn't get it, so I'm not heard. And what people aren't realizing is there are a lot of people who want different things, right, and they're all taking what they want. And so part of this is actually to help people compromise, and by depersonalizing. Okay, I know that this is like what a bunch of people want. And again, it's not a vote. It's actually what supports our shared work, because that's why we're that's why we're here together. You know, so for example, in emergency room, Punctuality is not going to be important, right? You're not going to care for the patient who got there on time, or who got there first, you're going to care for the patient who was in the most critical need of care. And, and so I think it really does worse culture companies to articulate their culture, and to be kind of unapologetic about what they, what they prioritize and what they don't prioritize. I used to work at a tech company where I could now say, if I had this framework back then I would say they prioritize acknowledgement information and candor and they deprioritize punctuality and attention. And also to understand that, to understand that we are when meaning people talk about bringing their authentic selves to work, the thing is, we have many authentic selves. Right? And so, when do you one of the things when people talked about respect? Now, I'd ask them, hey, what does it mean to you? They brought up the golden rule. So many people say treat people the way that you want to be treated? Or what if you don't want to be treated the way that wouldn't, they don't want to be treated the way that you want to be treated. And then there's the platinum rule, treat people the way that they want to be treated? Well, what if they don't know or they don't tell you. And so I have actually what I called the rubber band rule. And so this is something to think about, at work in in life. And the rubber band rule reflects actually how we, how we are flexible, how we stretch how we actually accommodate to other people's needs. It's like, okay, I know, Wendy, now. Really, I mean, I care about control. We know when he cares about punctuality, I'll make sure that I'm on time, right? And, and yet, there are some forms of respect that, like consideration is really not one of mine. And yet, I know when we were working together, I was like, Well, I can like stretch, I can stretch to accommodate windy. But over time, if I do it over and over, and I actually get tired of stretching, you know what happens? It's like a rubber band, we snap and we break. So what, so what a lot of people aren't aware of is what are our internal breaking points? Because oftentimes, like no, it's not a big deal. I'm, I'm cool. I don't mind that you're late. But overtime, so I'm really pissed off, but I can't say it. And then you know what happens? People just leave. And they say that that culture was bad. But what they didn't ever do was ask, What do I want? And how do I say it? How do I express it? And maybe I'm not going to get what I want, but at least we can have a conversation? Because and so that's really that's how the the it's, it's helped teams actually have a shortcut to say, hey, like, interpersonally? Hey, this is this is actually what's important to me. These are my forms of respect. And then we can also say, what are the forms respect that are neither right now? In this in this stage of the work? Maybe you're an ideation, which is different from implementation?
Wendy Hanson 32:51
Yeah, I love I love that example. Because I think that that happens a lot. And if we step over something, or let the rubber bands stretch for too long, then it's really hard to bring that up. And for the last two months, you've been doing this, and really uncomfortable for me. Yeah. It speaks to the candor in the beginning to say, let's set some ground rules up here. How are we going to do this? So we're both happy?
Julie Pham 33:18
Yeah. And asking. And actually, it's, it's also just asking questions like, Hey, I'm noticing this, can you tell me more? Or even like, I see this, do you see this, like a perception check? Right? And so I'm a big fan of, we don't just have to give this. This is the way I feel, it could actually be to ask a question of like, I'm seeing this, are we seeing the same thing? And to ask questions, I think that's where the curiosity part comes in. Because it is a conversation, it's it is about sparking conversations, and then, and then to share why this matters to me. Because people remember stories. They're not just gonna remember, you know, I said, it's not about respect styles. It's not about Julie likes this, this and this, it's just when I was growing up, my mom was always late picking me up from school. And I just felt a lot of shame, because the school staff had to wait, I understand she was really busy, I get that. But I said, when I grew up, that's going to be a priority. Punctuality is gonna be a priority to me. And if you think someone else could have the exact same experience and have a different reaction, well, when he, when I share that story with you, you're going to remember that more than just like, Oh, our joy is warm, prefer forms respect, again, you'll remember the story. And that's what it is. It's about sparking stories as to how we came to care about the things we care about, right?
Wendy Hanson 34:41
Why it is important to us. And when we understand that why, and then we'll we'll be able to use that form of respect with that person so much easier, because it will it will resonate. Yeah. Well, we have less than five minutes left. So I want to leave you talked about curiosity, and we certainly love that in coaching asking those big open ended questions to get people think. But what do you think managers can do in a time that we're really trying to create more inclusive environments? What are some of the things that managers can do as we, as we talk about this topic of respect to make their environments more inclusive?
Julie Pham 35:18
I think that practicing curiosity is a an asking questions is actually an indicator of psychological safety. It is that it is actually at the core of belonging and inclusion. And leaders have to model it. They have to ask questions, and not Why did you do that, that that way? It's like, Oh, why, you know, should we do it this way to show that like, they don't have all the answers, actually. Because oftentimes, we don't ask questions, because we feel we should know the answer. We think that maybe people will think we weren't listening, because we should have known it, right? Or like, or maybe we don't want people to look down on us or whatever. And so I think that opening questions, or asking questions, models, models, curiosity, and it has to actually, leaders have to do that, because if they do it, then it shows it. People do what you do, not what you say. Right. And so often leaders say like, embrace failure, but they don't talk about their failures.
Wendy Hanson 36:26
They don't worry about a story about their failure, we would it would resonate so much. Yes, it is safe that I can say this, because look at the CEO said their failure.
Julie Pham 36:37
And and also, and I'll just curiosity is a practice. It's not a trait. I think of it as a practice, like meditation, there are going to be days where it is i i It's easier for me to practice curiosity than others. And there are days where I'm feeling resentful, and angry and confused. And I'm not very curious. You know, and to kind of understand that we're all striving. And and, you know, with meditation, that looks easy, and yet, it's really hard to be still. So the kind of just remember that, that it's an ongoing practice, even there are times where it's, it's much easier for me to communicate my needs than other times.
Wendy Hanson 37:17
And I think sometimes it's good to start the conversation with I'm curious, you know, when you have a hard time they've had to get into something, just start there. I'm curious, wow, you thought about this in a very different way. And you can say that without, you know, with with being very open ended, so that people feel like, they really are curious about what I what I learned. And now I can share very honestly and authentically. Yes. Yeah. Oh, well, this was great. Julie, there's so many good points for people to remember, and so many good stories intertwined in here. And if people want to learn more about you, and you have access to the book, what's the best way for them to reach out to you, Julie,
Julie Pham 38:05
you can, you can go to forms of respect.com. Or you can go to curiosity based.com. And I'm a big fan of different ways of learning. So we also have the content in on digital on digital courses, because I know some people don't like to read. And also shorter pieces, as well. So yes, you can you can email me at Julie at curiosity based.com to if you want to reach me directly, or find me on LinkedIn.
Wendy Hanson 38:32
And as a great storyteller on your site, you have some wonderful little videos, scenarios that that speak to each of these, which I thought were so well done. And it it makes the point so clear, and so visual that people say, yeah, now I'll remember that. So I encourage people to go on and look at some of those, because they're very well done.
Julie Pham 38:53
Thank you so much money, that means a lot coming from you.
Wendy Hanson 38:56
Well, thank you for being with me today. Thank you listeners. And and think about this, because respect is such an important piece. And now it's not just one word, you now have seven different forms that you can think about. And you can think about what you need yourself and what other people need. And I love the points that Julie brought up about the team and it's for the sake of why it's for the sake of the work, you know what is going to serve us the best. And I know that these will filter out from from your work life to your personal life. And I'm sure your next book that focuses on personal life will be wonderful too, because people need that we need respect at home now too. And then all of our relationships. Yes. So thank you, Julie. Thank you everybody for listening, and have a wonderful day and show respect to people. Yes, go out and practice. Be curious. Take care.