Co-Creating the Future of Your Organization with Daniel Truran (Ep. #68)

Published on
January 17, 2023
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Building Better Managers Podcast Episode #68: Co-Creating the Future of Your Organization with Daniel Truran

The business world is in a state of great change and opportunity. With an ever-growing remote and hybrid workforce, an increasing emphasis on DEI, sustainability, and technology, the “command and control” style of leadership has become more or less obsolete.

The future success of your company relies on managers that lead with values and vision, and work together as super-collaborators solving problems up, down and across your organization.

In this episode:

Meet Daniel Truran

  • Daniel Truran has dedicated the last 20 years to exploring and harnessing the connections between the values, the purpose, and the actions of people and companies. He is currently director general at Ethical Business Building the Future (EBBF.org ), Co-creator of B Lab Europe, Co-founder of B For Good Leaders and Partner at NOW, and was the co-founder of the Impact Hub Madrid.
  • He is currently a Professor of Impact Innovation at EOI, a Visiting Professor at ESADE, and teaches at various business schools.

Changes in the Current Business Landscape

  • The first one is a shift from "greenwashing" and "purpose washing" (promoting/marketing your company as green or purpose driven but not having any intention of making any effort or changes to that effect) to at least "wishing" - having a genuine desire to be greener and more purpose driven. It is substantially less cynical and money and effort is actually going toward making real change. Companies are finding the "how to do it" very difficult, though, so progress is slow, but there is progress now.
  • The second huge change that they see this move from the isolated unit, the company, to being part of something, part of a dynamic, interdependent community that the company is an important part of.
  • In addition, the company - the leadership team & managers - are shifting from a one-way, top-down line of communication to one which is far more interactive, where leaders need to get to know better who they're working, who they can be serving, and creating more mutually beneficial dialogues instead of barking orders. It's most more complex, but also much more enriching and productive in today's environment where everything is changing so fast and subordinates often have better techniques and/or information.

The Power of Building Community vs Relying Solely on Marketing

  • After decades of emphasis on "Command-and-Control" leadership, the relationship between employee and manager is changing out of necessity (see The Boss Factor Revisited).
  • Many people who've fought for that leadership position, they're at the top and that style worked for many years (even for decades), are finding it hard to let go of that way of leading.
  • Success is the prime mover of change, so suggesting if we change that decision making style and evolve it step by step, test it and prototype it, then we can be more successful.
  • But just because this is the way forward doesn't mean actually doing it is not really challenging -until you find a way to do it that works for your situation.

The Benefits of Co-Creating and Collaboration

  • Companies in general want to deliver something that's really fantastic, and work very hard to give customers and communities the best possible way forward. The best way do this is to co-create those solutions with your community.
  • People become much more excited, involved and invested when they are part of the decision making and implementation processes. And this can be scaled up as long as you can let go of this fear of not being in complete control of everything.
  • Within the organization is exactly the same principle. You have human beings with amazing solutions and talents that are there waiting to be used. Don't stop this magic happening by forcing them into boxes just for the sake of being "in control." So a bit more trust can be useful to create these really rich organizations where everybody feels they are co-creating the success of the business.

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Daniel Truran

Daniel Truran has dedicated the last 20 years to exploring and harnessing the connections between the values, the purpose, and the actions of people and companies. He is currently director general at Ethical Business Building the Future (EBBF.org ), Co-creator of B Lab Europe, Co-founder of B For Good Leaders and Partner at NOW, and was the co-founder of the Impact Hub Madrid.

He is currently a Professor of Impact Innovation at EOI, a Visiting Professor at ESADE, and teaches at various business schools.

View the episode transcript

Wendy Hanson  0:24  

Greetings to our listeners all over the globe. In this increasingly complex world, we need leaders with a vision that can work with communities and businesses to create a better future. Today, I am honored to talk to one of those leaders. My guest Daniel Turan is a strategist, impact innovator, speaker and enabler. Let me tell you more about him. This is going to be a really exciting podcast that people will be listening to all over the world. Daniel turn has dedicated the last 20 years to explore and harness the connection between the values, the purpose and the actions of people and companies inspiring and creating communities and movements that are building the future. A better more prosperous, sustainable, and future. He is currently Director General at E BB F ethical business building the future. He's co creator of bee lab in Europe, which is bringing the B Corp movement to Europe. He's co founder of B for good leaders and a very exciting organization that one of the things they said on their website is B for good leadership in place together, there is no leadership on one zone. So it tells you a little bit more about Daniel, partner at now partners, he was co founder of the Impact Hub Madrid, Professor of impact innovation that E O is visiting professor at Asad E, E S A D, a law school in Spain Camillus you see JC teaching at various masters programs in business schools, to spark the transition that people in the world want and need. So Daniel, I am so honored to have you on today, this is going to be so much fun to learn about what's what you're up to in the world.

Daniel Truran  2:22  

Glad to be here. And I must say I was a bit, I got a bit tired and stressed out by reading all the things that I'm supposed to have done. But I've good use. So all the things that I've been working on that you work, to me this important thing that when I talk about experiences, not you know, things that I read, I can tell you that when you really cannot do your values, you can add them with other people in your community, some pure magic happens. So look forward to sharing some stories about that. Yes.

Wendy Hanson  2:51  

Now, what are some of the things that you want to like add to some of these movements that you're involved in? Before we start talking about changes in communities? Is there anything else you want to add to that?

Daniel Truran  3:02  

No, I think I think the key word is code. Yeah, so I co founded co created code. So to me, that's a really, it's a no brainer, not not for everybody. But for me, it is that doing things on your own is just so much more tiring, there's less chance of success and everything else or this code, co creation co founding. Kobe to me is a very, very important element. And I would connect that with my personal values. So to me a values driven attitude is really one that the strength of I'm surprised by how many people knew I asked them? What's the most important value for you? What's most important in this changing society uncertainty? And most people struggle? Oh, that's a difficult question. And then I wonder if you do not know what your purpose is who you are what's most important to you? How on earth can you navigate, you know, all the uncertainty or the crisis around us? So, to me, that was a very nice place to start from knowing you know, what is really important to me, serving humanity. And from that spirit of service, looking for ways in which some magic can be created? Yes,

Wendy Hanson  4:10  

I love that. And at BetterManager. With our coaches, we are a big fan of CO creating with clients, we always use that expression from the coaches training institute and CO creating and being thought partners because I totally agree you were were so much better when we put our ideas together with someone else.

Daniel Truran  4:29  

Once Interesting. Interesting when you because it's we all agree and everybody listens, absolutely agree. Until we go into your office and then you have to co create with your colleagues and say, Oh my God. Oh, that's not so easy. It sounds so easy on the podcast that I heard in Serbia. Yeah. And then you walk into your office today and say, Oh, that's gonna be a tough one. So let's see the attitudes you know, the the ways in which this can actually happen.

Wendy Hanson  4:54  

Yes. Great. So what are some of the biggest changes that you See people experiencing in business right now?

Daniel Truran  5:03  

Yeah, that's one, it's a very exciting time, a time of deep crisis and deep opportunities. I think we all agree on that one. But there's two things that I've been witnessing. So I'm calling into different corporations and companies to see you tell us about the future, how we can transition and everything else. So two strong elements. The first one is this shift from green washing, purpose washing, which in itself is not too bad, because then companies know leaders know what they're supposed to be doing. They know that they're supposed to be green, they're supposed to be purpose driven. The big shifts, especially the last five years, they notices from this Washington wishing. So there's a desire, a wish to be green, a wish to implement purpose, which was not there before the promises is the half, there's still a big gap. But already, it's a huge night and day difference from just washing about it, and wishing, desiring to progress. So that creates a very fertile ground. So that is in terms of the intention. And the second huge change that they see this move from the unit, the company, the person, the organization at the center, leading telling, selling to a big shift to being part of something of a systemic thinking, a systemic community, that the company is a part of. And it's an interdependent relationship. First, the company or the leader tools sold is like a one way dialogue had to convince him to lead had to be strong. And now the shift is very, very important one that you need to be interacting with, learning with CO creating with. So in a sense, it was easier before I just tell you what to do, and you do it, and you obey, and you you buy my marketing campaign. Now, it's much more complex, but also the interaction with the community, which is now part of how leaders lead means that you get to know better who you're working with who you're supposed to be serving this dialogues that need to happen that before were not necessary. So it's most more complex, and more enriching, I feel.

Wendy Hanson  7:15  

Yeah. And, and yeah, there's, there's one thing to to believe in doing that. But there's another thing to figure out how to do that in the world. Because that is just so incredibly important. Because I see that in salespeople all over, especially in the US, you know, it's pushing things out. And I'm very proud that a BetterManager. Many of our salespeople have a very consultative Co Co creation model we do when when we try to help people solve their issues, because that's the only way to be able to do it. I totally agree. And we've got to get everybody moving in that direction. Recently, I did a podcast with Dr. George Woods about hope. And, you know, in business, oftentimes, they've said hope is not a strategy. And, and Dr. Woods said, Yes, you know, if if we didn't have hope, and he based it on his experience in the medical model. And so hope is really important. And you and I talked about that, and the need to have hope. Can you tell me more about your perspective on that?

Daniel Truran  8:21  

Yeah, I think right now, one of the issues that I see is this polarization and this polarization, this fighting, which is contrary to the evolution of the worlds is mainly due to fear, to fear and a lack of hope. And people are desiring hope, desire and give me some hope, give me some certainty given something to look forward to. Without that, nothing can happen. Every single decision that is taken in lack of hope, is obviously a negative one. It's it's an absence of abundance. It's a scarcity, the outcome would be much worse, when you have hope. When your organization creates hope, so sounds hope as opposed to products, and you get a real engagement, you got people coming to you being attracted to it. And hope is a huge attractor, but also creates unity. Because a shared hope, of the future that we want to build, and it can be, you know, being the most successful company next year, or providing the best sustainable solutions. You know, it doesn't have to be hope in the future as in 100 years from now, it can be six months one year, it's a tangible hope, yeah, hope that I can really create. And that unites my team unites my customers, even United competitors. I was recently in the charmer shaker cup 27 In Egypt, and it was fascinating to see all these coalition's of hope, because the government's not getting together creating the sustainable solutions that are necessary. So So companies I So human beings I saw leaders come together in this Commons shared hope that there is a way forward that we have the innovations to go forward. And therefore these coalition's are built, and the most unlikely partners really come together and work together. And if you want to know what unlikely partnership can occur, I gave you the example of, you know, Apple is his biggest competitor. And so if you think about who's the biggest competitor of Apple, I guess Samsung is one of the ones that comes to mind. And then when you see that, you see that all the iPads or the iPhones or the screens of Apple, are made by Samsung, its main competitor. So now you see how it's incredible how before the me versus you unites in a way to collaborate in to actually have a better outcome. So to me, there's elements that really break down the old me versus you in many ways to let's find ways to really come together to create the best possible results in the best possible atmosphere. And this, you know, this main objective of common hope, is what really allows people to lower the barriers, and this 10 each other have really meaningful conversations that bring out the best innovation, the best outcomes and the best results. But it takes a bit of time. And when the is difficult to find the time to build relationships and everything else. But to me, that's one of the best investments that we can really make united by the sense of hope. And then what is hope? That's what we can dream together. Yeah, it's not one hope. It's just something we can create, and formulate, and explore, and dream of. And I think that one last comment that comes with hope. And the visions of the future, is that too many of us every day, right now, today, the people listening to us, I'm sure have to deal with the problems that they need to solve the issues that they need to address, you know, the huge to do list that you need to take off. If for a moment you pause this, and you say, let's think together about the vision of an ideal future with a hope it can be achieved. All of a sudden, just for a moment, think about your ideal vision of your future. I can hear people breathing, I can hear people moving away from the stress of I have to I have so the crisis to oh, let me dream the future. Let me see what that could look like. And then when you dream it with others, then you can see oh, maybe can be achieved. And then something incredible, incredible, incredible, new energy is created there.

Wendy Hanson  12:40  

I love that. And having that ideal vision for the future becomes the Northstar that we're all heading in the same direction. And how and and you're right, everybody gets so tied up and doing the things that have to get done that they do not take that time because if you can hold that up, like ah, this is where I'm heading, isn't this exciting, and we're all on the same page. And then we also as you you talked about, we understand each other's values, what's important to you and what's important to me and be able to really speak to those so that people feel heard and for whatever situation they're in there's some empathy so that we can bring people along and keep creating Yeah, it's got it feels better even when you're just talking about it Daniel, I feel a sense of relief.

Daniel Truran  13:32  

And I think that makes you feel better is I wish that people could see you when did you smile in your radiance? Because that's another great aggregator Yeah, what is exactly as you said, get to know a little bit about who else is around you what is important to them appreciate them listen to them but then you know your face when there's just pure joy is radiance is not a silly smiling you know you cannot always be happy I don't really buy the thing that accompany you have to be happy. There's some days you're not happy some days you feel really upset so I don't buy the we must be happy all the time. But I do buy attitudes the kind of attitude which is a great example. I wish we looked at ourselves in the mirror more often not to say how beautiful we are but rather what is our expression at work like are we communicating energy positivity possibility or are we going this route upset Phase Stressed phase and everything else? And if you have a little mirror in front of you have a look at it sometimes oh that's my face on one minute change that let's have some Reagan's really it's not an empty rageous like haha, dancing and everything else. It's a it's a thoughtful one Yeah, of knowing some values that really can drive you forward some values that you believe in and then you can communicate to others so to me that attitudes is half of the of the recipe to actually create these coalition's these communities this coke rating of the future that is now possible. Yeah,

Wendy Hanson  15:03  

I love that. Because in coaching so many the folks that we've been coaching, the manager will say, I have to change people's attitude, you know, and, and what we're talking about is if people know the direction they're going, they have hope they know someone believes in them, they have a Northstar. They'll, they'll they'll move their attitude, our attitudes get bad when we don't know what our purpose is, and what we're all, you know, working towards together. So when that comes up as an issue, it really it really comes down to, you know, know where we're heading, and know that we're not alone, and that we can lean into others. We don't have to do it alone.

Daniel Truran  15:44  

Absolutely. It's fascinating to me to see also, that further, there's another company that I'd love. Also, they're also part of the BPH, this group of leaders exploring how values can be applied to business committees called second use. And it's interesting second Muse has two CEOs, not one, but two CEOs, a man and a woman that can say in and carry Freeman, for a step. How interesting, right? Not one, but two CEOs, it sounds Oh, there's two heads. Now they're co creating the really great from the top to everything they do. And what they do, they create this massive co creation, co solution networks, they work with NASA, they work with Intel, they work with cities, they work with nations, to solve really massive problems. And so it's so difficult for three or four of us to work together. And then companies like second Muse have mastered the art of co creation, by crowdsourcing solutions with 1000s and 1000s of people, and what attracts these people. They're not getting paid. But they feel that what they're contributing is worth it. For example, it's the plastic patch in in Singapore, it's the mobilisation, sustainable mobility in cities. with NASA, they were doing the apps of the future know how to use science to actually develop a better future. And it's fascinating how much people contributes to the outcomes, because one they feel is worth it, too. They also see who else is there, it's a learning process where they learn from each other, there's other human beings in the 1000s, that creates a dynamic where people get to know each other, get to know what's important. And after that experience, they keep working together on other projects. So to me, it's fascinating to see in this maybe, in personal worlds, what attracts 1000s of people to work together to create something better. And second use is a great example of that being put into practice for goods.

Wendy Hanson  17:51  

Yeah, oh, I love that example. And I love you know, there, there are a number of, I think I would assume I'm making this up a small number of people that have like CO CEOs in that kind of position. And it just makes so much sense. It feels like our one leader at the top who has all the decisions is an out, you know, molded thing that was a thing of the past. And we haven't changed that up to see what works best.

Daniel Truran  18:19  

But it's so difficult when it's so difficult to let go that imagine you're a leader, you've fought for the leadership, you're now at the top, it's worked for many years, even for decades, sometimes letting go, or that way of leading. That's so so you're in San Francisco you're hanging on to especially because everything is changing, you're hanging on to this. And you kind of know is not the right way forward. But it's so difficult to transition to that. And I think that's why I think success is a very good driver of change as well. So I fear so many companies are complaining about the CEOs when the old paradigm, the old things, but they're not offering an alternative. They're not having conversations saying how can we have success to get know everybody wants to have success, nobody wants to fail. So suggesting if we change these decision making and evolve it step by step, maybe we can test it and prototype it and maybe we can be more successful. And starting from a let's work together to be successful, as opposed to I want more flexible time. I want this I want that you are terrible pointing fingers. I fear we're missing the opportunity to talk with people with human beings uniting around something that that we have in common, which is success and hope and really making transition that decision that's necessary going forward. We all know. We need to let go of control delegates, diffuse leadership. Oh, they sound beautiful. But actually doing it I repeat is really challenging until you find a way to do it. Yeah. What's

Wendy Hanson  19:59  

an exam? pull up some, you know, either people or companies that have found that way. So if people are listening in, they say, Yeah, I'm very interested. But what would be my next step?

Daniel Truran  20:11  

I think it's the first thing that companies in general are talking to companies organizations is, you want to deliver something that's really perfect, really fantastic. And you want to really work very hard to give your customer your community the best possible way forward. But there's a better way, which is CO creating your solutions with your community in the sense delegating the the outcomes with your community help you to co create simple example, in Potomac rates, this co creation space that we created, before opening the doors, we had hundreds of meetings in a garage with holes, with a whole community saying, what might this space look like? What experiences would you have in that corner on the right? What would you see happening in that second floor there, we had an open there. And this is people that were excited by this idea of CO creating and CO work that will not pay, they were going to pay us to use the space. So when we opened the doors, hundreds of members signed up, paid right away, because they felt that is my space, I co created it. And that's a simple example. But then you can scale it up again, you can scale it up to letting go of this fear of not delivering something perfect looking at a macro company, we go again, went to the most perfection seeking companies in the world and was looking at every detail of the unboxing of the product. And again, Apple I'm sure comes to mind. And think of Apple Yeah, the biggest perfectionist of the world, what do they do, they deliver a beta version of their software. And it's huge, right? Everybody's thought what is the beta version of iOS 16 coming out, 1718 and whatever. And people, consumers who pay tons of money for their Apple products are queuing up to download a buggy in person, it's not working operating system and helping apple you know, the billionaire's Apple to make a better products. So you need to think a bit maybe I do not need to be so perfect. Maybe I need to switch this co creation, this working together to create the better solutions. And this is a business to customer. But within your own organization is exactly the same principle. within your organization. You have human beings with amazing solutions and talents that are there waiting to be used. You just not giving them permission to buy not delegated by not involving to make this magic happen. So a bit more trust, I think would be useful to create these really rich organizations where everybody feels I am co creating this I am part of the solution. I feel so proud of being part of this group.

Wendy Hanson  23:05  

Yeah. Because the more you are part of that solution going forward, yeah, the the more engagement, the more you will be really like, wow, we are in this together. And, and I think there's so many missed opportunities there in organizations, when decisions are made and not. And it's hard to involve everybody in decisions, but there are, there are ways to be able to get that a little bit better. Yeah.

Daniel Truran  23:30  

And I was, with all this optimism, I tried to apply them to the BBF and I failed. So we had this, you know, I read the the book from Zappos about you know, all ah cracy. And the concept of lockers is basically you don't tell people what to do you have a list of things and people pick them up and do them. So oh, this sounds like a great idea and apply does it bvF so we have this team of 20 people all over the world, working at the BPF Okay, let's so holacracy either what he wants crisis, nobody did anything. Why? Because there was still waiting for an input and we're not ready for it. So you can just switch off tomorrow. Diffuse leadership, everybody decides together now you need to build the capacity of people to be the best version of themselves. So it's not just a switch the fuse, and that's why it's so hard. And that's why so few people are successful. You need to take the time to get to know the person to understand their values, their hope. What capacities can they build, what things will they never be able to do and then build that capacity build that human being to then be that amazing team member etc myself and failed miserably because I missed that capacity building that transition that accompany meant, that allows you your people to be the best selves, but it takes patience. It takes humbleness, it takes a lot of listening. And it takes a lot of feminine leadership. To be honest with you, Wendy, I've seen that so much successful, such much more successful, when at the very least, women and female leadership is involved. Because it's a different way of approaching interactions, it's much more the example I often give us, it's not a very business one, supermarkets, supermarket key, right. And you can see the men in the queue and the women in the queue at the end of the shopping. And the men, I have my credit card ready, like three rows behind, I'm not talking to anybody, I'm not thinking anybody want to get in PE and go. The average three or four women in the queue, the absurd total strangers, this Oh, you bought that. That's interesting. I bought that for my child. And that actually did not work. Oh, I use that in a conversation issues with total strangers, really deep, really bring in the family and the intimacy of one cells. And that's a different thing. The male, get things done, go quickly. The female interaction is wants to learn, share, collaborate, oh, I've got this idea, oh, I tried this, you should try it immediately. They're not best friends. But it's an attitude that allows this co creation, this collaboration in a much more natural, much more human way. I'm generalizing. This is not all the same. But in general, I find that female lead or whether it's female leadership within that are much better at understanding and implementing this wholesome cocreation attitudes.

Wendy Hanson  26:33  

Yes, I think as a woman, you described it very well. I think when we come to the table, men want to, like, let's get things done. And they will always if there's a new project, and they know a little bit about it, they'll say, Oh, I'm good, I've got this, you know, and a woman will have to take time, generally speaking, will want to study and research and not raise their hand until they feel that they really got it. And so and, and the relationship building is so, so good, because they want to get to know people like in the grocery line, you want to get to know and you want to share. So if you bring those two together, and you respect each other's views, that's why you know, no organization, you know, the leadership should should be really representative of more diversity even than that. But you know, at least having women and men working together coming from their different perspective.

Daniel Truran  27:27  

And I love the kind of organization of describing when dinner where there's respect for each other, where there's hope, where people know each other when they know their values and other people's values. Sounds like something that maybe we can do now, or at least give it a try, give it a try to see from I've tried it, it works. I've seen what fails and learn from this. And it really does work. And it's not just a nice, beautiful theory theory and read in a book I tried in time and time again. So the B Corp movements, that's a powerful movement of people that really unite around that the BBF movements of global leaders, the impacts are now before good leaders, you keep seeing more and more of these groups of people and the energy they create and the solutions they create really give you hope for the for a better way of working. And in any case, whatever the outcome. It's a beautiful way of living your life now. So think about it, detach yourself from the outcome for a moment, think about your daily life. What a beautiful, driven patients nice way to lead. And this is, I'm a high so my high faith really goes into servant leadership. And to me this concept of being of service to others, is just so powerful, and so light at the same time. If you're serving somebody else, you don't need to lead take decisions, tell them what to do, which is much more tiring. If you're serving you're at the service of people. I'm serving you. It just feels like even if I say it's in at the receiving end, a leader who is serving their staff, the staff, its own this leader is serving me is helping me is nourishing me. So how can I give back? So this concept of service and servant leadership is apparently a weakness. But actually one of the biggest strengths, you can enter and introduce into your organization.

Wendy Hanson  29:23  

Yeah. Oh, we could talk for hours. But I have one final question. Yes. Excuse me, as companies want to get the message out about their work. You really believe of course in the power of building community, rather than relying solely on marketing to make things happen. Tell us a little bit more about that framework. Because I think that's that's where we're going or should be going in the future.

Daniel Truran  29:51  

Yeah, that's that's what we mentioned this huge shift from the solo talking to selling to to building community in funnel Tech. to an extreme, and I hope the marketing department does not hate me for what I'm going to see say here, but I would say zero investment in marketing, 100% and community building. So imagine investing all your resources in building a community, which is within your company, your company, in your customers, and your suppliers, even your competitors, and who so if Apple and Samsung, imagine investing 100% in your community, what would happen, that things will sell themselves, that the community will love you, the community will do the promotion for you. There's nothing better than somebody else saying how wonderful you are. If you and I when they say how wonderful we are. These guys, well, I'm half Italian. So you know, my mother thought that was a very nice bambino. So I have this kind of positivity around me. But in general, I do not sound very good. If I say I'm wonderful, lovely. But somebody else says our Matt, Daniel is really inspiring that really buys the sells Daniel, very, very easily. So shifting bravely from investing on selling and marketing to building communities, deep, nurturing, beautiful communities of hope, of positivity. To me, that's really the way forward. So the big question to me to your company, is how are you creating hope? So maybe that's a thought for companies and leaders to keep in their minds, as they think of the strategy for the next years and years to

Wendy Hanson  31:31  

come? Yes. I love that. That that can be a wonderful mantra, how can we be creating hope, hope among our company hope among the people that we serve. And we certainly are also believers that at BetterManager. And in servant leadership, you know, we we serve people to try to our tagline is help people thrive at work every day. Because if you thrive at work, and you feel good about what you do, you're able to use your strengths, people understand you, you know, it's, it won't be work.

Daniel Truran  32:02  

It'll be Wednesday, I love again, if you go back to success, you are the example of success for people that have not seen your trajectory. You start with an idea you start growing, you grow the people in reach. In the end you just showing how fertile the ground is right now. So you yourself your way of doing this podcast series, and all the work that you do a better management's really show that this is the way forward. So you are proof in the pudding. The proof is in the pudding. I think the expression when the proof in the pudding that hope and service works.

Wendy Hanson  32:38  

Thank you, Daniel, thank you. I am honored. I'm honored by your comments. So I know people are going to want to learn more about you and connect. So what are the best ways for them to do that? What would you like? And we'll put it in the show notes.

Daniel Truran  32:51  

Yeah, I think Daniel Jordan on LinkedIn, my audience is mainly Spanish speaking. So you will see most of my connections or most of my words are in Spanish, but in general, you just can connect, I would love to interact with you. And yeah, share the learning. I'm a very curious person, I want to learn more than talk. So anybody that wants to learn with me, I would be delighted, Daniel Jordan, on LinkedIn, and look forward to continue the conversation, meaningful conversations, leading to action.

Wendy Hanson  33:22  

Yes. Well, thank you, Daniel, thank you for taking the time with us today. I hope everybody has really taken in some of this. And if you don't leave with anything else leave with how do I create hope in my organization, even how do I create hope in my life as your north star and keep co creating, keep forming community. We can't give up hope because the world sometimes looks a little bleak. But if we all work together, we will be able to really accomplish great things and be happy that's you know, be fulfilled because we're, we're serving others. So thank you, Daniel.

Daniel Truran  33:59  

Thank you. A pleasure. Really a pleasure.

Wendy Hanson  34:02  

Have a great day, everybody.

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